Inside Turkey’s $Billion Gaming Boom | Görkem Türk, Laton Ventures (TRVC 36)

Yunus Celebeler Welcome to another episode of TRVC.

I'm Yunus Celebeler.

Our guest today is Görkem Türk, founding partner of LATON Ventures, a gaming-focused

VC fund in Turkey.

Welcome, Görkem.

Görkem Türk Hi, Yunus.

Thank you.

Yunus Celebeler So I have heard about LATON Ventures from its

founding and been following it closely.

So I'm really excited to hear more about Lato Ventures.

We'll get into that.

But I really wanted to kind of start with your career and how you got into starting a VC fund.

I know you back from Google days, but there's actually a career before that as well.

Tell me a little bit about your path.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you, first of all, for just inviting me to the podcast.

Like I have been just watching it with great interest and very happy to be here.

So like...

At least I have one follower.

I'm sure more than that.

So, like, my career, like, I have worked, like, in quite different avenues and industries.

Like, I started my career in FMCG, Procter & Gamble.

And then I did management consulting.

And then, luckily, I joined Google, Google's office.

And I worked there for, I think, like, six to seven years.

And let's say my professional affiliation with gaming has first started at Google.

In my Google days, I used to work as an industrial manager in there, like, leading the relationships.

with the gaming and apps companies.

And thanks to that,

like almost all of my relationships

resulting to Laton

was being established in the Google days.

So you really had a front seat

to all the gaming ecosystem in Turkey.

You know, you're managing their accounts at Google.

So you were seeing how much kind of money

they were spending on ads

and the returns probably as well

they're getting from it.

And so that's a great kind of jumping off point.

But how did you get the idea of starting a fund?

Well, it's a great question.

As you said, I think the biggest privilege was that I had the opportunity to work with all of these gaming founders who are now unicorns.

I just met with them before their companies were so big and basically just startups.

Maybe except Pico, you see.

They are older and much more, let's say, earlier established.

But after that, I think I have worked with almost all of the successful gaming founders in Google days.

so i think like the main inspiration point was that i got inspired by them like i just saw that

like we have as turkey created great businesses in gaming company side like in the sales side

and i thought that like why not to create a great fund a world-class fund like this turkish gaming

companies in the buy side in the fund side like who can be the seed stage who can be wet to the

companies in the in the first round so that was the that was the main point i came and then like

with the feedback i have taken from all these let's say vc funded founders by then i realized

that i think like the thing they need is not money the thing they need was the let's say day-to-day

operational partnership was the gaming founding and being a gaming founder like i'm sure that

it's similar in almost all of the industries but in gaming like they are so hands-on in the all

and every detail of the of the business to the to the smallest detail so i think like what they

needed was an operational partner rather than a money partner so like with these two let's say

inspiration and the opportunity i just i just got with this idea and yeah it was a start okay so a

great kind of um place to switch to talking about about latin ventures but so sounds like a a right

place but but also right time story you were there just at kind of your peak had you're saying peak

had already kind of grown and maybe exited but a lot of the other big gaming studios in turkey had

kind of were still on the on you you were watching them rise so you you got to know them early and

so one one last question there i mean what do you think if you think about it is your kind of

internal motivation like what do you okay so i mean the question was what what drove you to

starting a fund you saw the opportunity but but is there you know some personal what personal

meaning that you felt that this was what you wanted to do like i think i wanted to be an

entrepreneur since my early career like while i was working for png i also i was also tried a

side hustle another startup which failed uh luckily solar was it yeah it was it was about

solar energy it was a it was a it was an rnd project uh and then an electrical engineer by

origin okay so it was an it was an inverter project the hardware project nice but we failed

in the in the go-to market so i think like the entrepreneurial drive was there was the main

thing in here but like what i really loved and let's say got passionate about in gaming is that

i saw that like we can create global massive and let's say really reputable businesses out of here

in turkey from all to the world so like i thought that like as a personal motive i just want to give

my all of this effort like not only because of opportunity but to do somewhere that we can do

a great impact for the country as well okay so yeah so it's kind of also a kind of operator track

into VC in a sense, rather than from a financial background.

I mean, you're working at Google, but kind of more from the operating side.

So Laton, what's the size of the fund?

Well, with the site vehicles, currently we are around $70 million.

Okay.

Funds raised.

And you created the fund in the US or in Turkey or any sort of the domiciliation?

It is Netherlands-based.

It's a Netherlands-based fund.

It's Netherlands-based, yeah.

Okay.

And how is that process?

I mean, it's kind of the, I don't know what you call it, the soft underbelly of VC that people don't talk about all that much.

But the fundraising process is critical to running a fund.

You had great connections into the gaming industry.

But did that also help in terms of, we talk a lot about how the peak exit created a lot of people recycling money, those exited founders recycling, both starting new gaming companies, but also investing in them.

Did that pan out for you or did you have, you know, was it LPs from the gaming industry or outside the industry or how did you kind of?

Well, actually, as you said, like I'm not a financial background, like no fund management experience, a solo GP story, a specialized fund.

I think like we were, I was ticking all the boxes, which was just, which would scare an institutional LP by then while starting to fund.

And also since the main, let's say, thesis is being an operational operator,

I was also looking for more than money in my partners as well in LPs.

So I just brought this idea to the 10 gaming founders,

exited gaming founders, or let's say the senior executives by then.

And I just say, listen, I got this idea.

Each of you commit not only money, but also time and advisory time

to the Latom portfolio after it got invested,

after it invested into companies.

What do you think?

And the people who were my early supporters, obviously, was like Mert Cankurum, founder of Ruby Games, exited Rovio.

Mert Gür, founder of Loop Games, exited Games.

So not just Turkish exited gaming founders, actually.

Actually, they are Turkish.

They are Turkish exited to non-Turkish companies like Mert Cankurum, Mert Gür, Serdar Şahin.

You mentioned Rovio, which is why I was...

Yeah, they exited Rovio.

So I think like the most, almost all of them at the start was the Turkish founders like Mehmet Ecevit, Gram Games.

So like they first give the kickstart.

I think like since they have known me for years, it was an easy discussion for me.

It was a natural, to be honest, let's say transition and path.

And I'm obviously grateful to all of those early supporters.

What is harder was actually all the technical stuff, like identifying how a fund is being structured.

It's totally different from a company, as you said.

Where are you going to be domiciled?

What are the implications in terms of investment mandates, LP interest, etc.?

I think that was an area that I got probably zero exposure or network.

But I was lucky that I got two, let's say, people that were helping me a lot.

actually let's say three people that were helping me a lot that i was just

taking ideas like one is retillery from hummingbird fund manager experience

the other one is jen josh from mediterranean capital

and also back venture steve gratefully jim and memet

so all of these people were just let's say giving ideas

guiding me but at the end of the day i think finding a fund is just

a different form of entrepreneurship you need to go out identify like what is the

best solution for you, for your problems. So, I mean, it's also kind of a technical detail,

maybe that doesn't get talked about that much, but I'm kind of curious, you know, what was your

thought process? I mean, by the time you started Laton, the Turkish legal framework was in place

already, the BCIF or GCIF structure. I mean, some of the funds that were created early on in the

ecosystem, 212, E2VC, I think they were even created before that legal framework was in place

in Turkey.

So they may still have chosen to go the Holland route,

the Netherlands route,

but at that time it was pretty much mainly what was available.

But did you consider doing a Turkish,

what was the Turkish fund

or what was the reason for kind of choosing the Netherlands?

Actually, the latest version was not in place

when I found the fund in 2023.

2023, okay.

Yeah.

So like the main reason is that Latun is a global mandate fund.

I think more than one third of our investments are non-Turkish.

And back then, the regulation was not allowing you to do non-Turkish investments.

I love the current version.

Probably I would have done the local one.

So the mandate, it's global because you want to invest in gaming companies everywhere

or because Turkish gaming founders may also found in the US or in Europe?

Or what kind of a mix of both?

Actually, both.

And it has changed, by the way, when I started.

And now, actually, like when we started, we were planning a way more global mandate fund.

And we, let's say, did our job in the sourcing as well.

Like we probably like one of the funds that are sourcing almost all of the mobile gaming deals from like any country.

But like throughout these three years, we have seen that like the market conditions and the founder motive, like Turkey basically outweighs.

It was a result, like we didn't push to invest in the Turkish founders, but as a result, we got higher conviction in the Turkish founders versus the plan at the beginning.

And in our current, let's say, up-to-date teasers, we love doubling down on Turkish founders.

Although we do non-Turkish investments as well, like I said, I think around one third of our investments are non-Turkish, like non-Turkish founded.

But like, if you look at it from the recency perspective, if you look at the probably like, I don't know, last five investments or something, like all of them are Turkish.

And do you have any investments you can share, your last public investment or one that's done particularly well or any ones you want to share?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, like we don't announce almost all of our, let's say, investments.

We have completed currently 16, let's say, investments in total in three years.

Probably six to seven of them are public for the time being.

Okay.

And obviously, let's say the company that we are known for the most is Grand Games.

We are the first preceding investor of Grand Games with Back Ventures at the IDA stage while they were being founded.

And we are having a great journey with them.

We can go into detail.

And another portfolio company that we are super excited about is RotateLab.

our recent investment that we have announced a few months ago we have called it their seed round

with arcadia and they they are also let's say their their games are also off the chart as well

do you get interested at all in like gaming tech or is it game you know people are making games or

game studios only we are we are interested in gaming tech as well like we are we are we are

investor of layer layer ai abby to be sales more than that right now in the in the in the ai in the

art art solution spectrum of gaming we are definitely definitely interested in that as well

but like majority of our portfolio is mobile gaming content so basically basically games

and the probably the reason is that it's just for conviction and how do you see that evolving do you

think it'll stay in mobile gaming do you think the turkish ecosystem will start branching out into

console or other games or do you think i mean mobile gaming is just the interesting place to

be anyway and it's going to continue that way for the foreseeable future well if you

like market size wise if you look at the global gaming market it's around 250 billion dollars

or something and more than half or around half of this is mobile game so we are talking about

an industry which is around 150 billion or something around and if you just cascade down

break down this to the categories you will see that let's say puzzle genre which probably is

making i don't know like 40 billion or something is is the is the genre that is growing the most

in the entire spectrum so like whichever combination you look at it like platform and

category wise and size wise like i'm talking about the absolute growth as well like because you can

have the base effect but like the mobile gaming casual puzzle has been growing very healthily

in the in the past let's say decade and turkey is riding the wave in this so like this is the

let's say rational explanation of this from the market from the demand side people are always

obviously talking about and that's the main reason obviously like the turkey's main let's say drivers

and and the and the in detail but the thing is that like in the user side in the market category

is being grown and is being driven by the category that turkey is dominated by know-how so i will come

to that like we are doubling down on turkey casual mobile gaming puzzle i think like it's like in a

golden age we would say right now so like i wouldn't expect the best founders to bet on another

another another area for the for the foreseeable future and it makes sense i mean you're a solo gp

first time fund no need to yeah you know lose focus i mean you have something that's going well

might as well stay focused on that it makes a lot of sense and so 2023 so it's only been

three years three years so early days still to be thinking about a fund too or is it something

on your mind?

Well, we are still like,

we're still,

our pace is very,

say,

slow for a pre-seed fund.

Although 16 in three years,

it's not bad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For pre-seed,

like for IDS stage,

I think like we still,

we still have like

a quite decent capital

from our first fund

we are deploying

and we are focusing

on helping our portfolio companies.

Obviously at some point,

we will start raising

our second fund

and we are having,

let's say,

a huge inbound as well,

but like not yet.

We are still.

And so,

and do you think,

So it sounds like the mandate or the focus would stay the same, but do you think the approach would change at all?

Would it be a larger fund or stay in the same size fund, move to later stage investments or stay at pre-seed?

This is something we are brainstorming a lot as well.

Well, we are subject matter experts rather than finance people.

So we love, let's say, engaging with KPIs, reading metrics in the late stage as well.

We are helping companies throughout the journey.

That's why I think we are comfortable with not only early-stage investments, but also late-stage investments as well.

And as an example, an eye-opening example, we have invested $500K to Grand Games in their pre-seed round.

And throughout the Series A and B, we have invested $25 million.

And our latest, largest investments was the Series B in the late-stage, because we feel comfortable about the data and reading the data.

So after that investment, we are brainstorming again and again.

Maybe in the second month, we can have a higher allocation to the late-stage investments as well.

For follow-ons?

Yes, or also for the first check-in.

Not only follow-ons, but it can be late-stage investments as well.

But it's still undercooking. We will see.

So geography-wise, it got focused into Turkey in a natural way.

Super. So let's talk a little bit about the Turkish gaming ecosystem. So you have a yearly event. There's also Moby Dictum is kind of the big gaming focus conference every year. I mean, how do you see the Turkish, we'll talk about the VC industry in general, but the kind of the gaming sector, the gaming industry, both from the startups and the founders perspective, but also from the investor perspective, because there are, so there's a few events.

there's also

focused on gaming

there's also a few funds

locally focused on gaming

I mean how do you see

that

how that's evolved

is it

on one side it creates

perhaps some competition

for you

on the other hand

it's kind of like

you know

it's good to be in a category

that's growing

yeah yeah yeah

we see the ecosystem

very very healthy right now

because like you

have decent

let's say amount of

depth

and the

and the interest

in the every pillar

every every every

let's say corner of the

ecosystem as you said

like I think like

the brightest talent of Turkey

we all know that as betting on the gaming.

So like if you got graduated from the Boğaziçi, etc.,

like the best universities of Turkey,

I think the coolest thing that you can do right now

for the past decade,

and that's the main tailwind,

is betting on Turkey.

So the human talent source is ticked, kind of.

Investor appetite.

So we have shown in our latest event,

like 75% of the global venture investment,

75% or three-thirds of the venture investment

in the past 12 months

has been invested in Istanbul, Turkey.

In the gaming, global gaming venture.

Not just mobile gaming, but just gaming in general.

Yes, exactly.

But obviously it excludes probably the self-investments

of GTA of billion dollars of Take-Two, obviously,

but like the external venture investment.

Three quarters of global gaming investments

has been in Istanbul.

So it's a clear domination.

So like it's healthy from that angle as well.

And also the variety of the investors,

I think it also gives depth to the ecosystem as well.

So in the pre-seed, obviously we are one of the most active pre-seed lead investors,

but it gives richness to the companies and to the cap table.

When you have collaborators who can bring value to the companies,

I think the good thing about gaming is that there are funds

who can bring value to the table when you partner with you.

And I think that's the main thing.

And event-wise, I think there are quite a few good events.

As you said, we are organizing our annual summit in May,

and we are calling it the GDC of Turkey.

Last year, there were 300 people from 20 countries.

More than half of the room was non-Turkish,

and almost all of the early and late-stage gaming venture capitals

of the globe were there.

So we want to keep it closed,

and let's say a founder only who can make meaningful connections

and hopefully warrant some deals out of that.

and the biggest event is right now obviously Moby Dictum

and they are doing a great job

and bringing everybody from the world

and we are also a close partner in October.

So these are the two main moments of the year

but there are also more events right now

like Yemijin is also an event

and there are quite a few as well

but I think these three will be enough

and top for the ecosystem together.

So you're mentioning the amount of interest from abroad.

And that's really interesting to see because it's something that Turkey, in a lot of verticals, struggles with, trying to attract foreign investment, foreign interest.

Do you see that?

We were talking a little bit about the first thoughts for Funtut.

Are you seeing interest from LPs abroad as well?

Exactly.

And our first fund has started with individual exit Turkish gaming founders.

but when we ended up

I think 40%

of our LP base

was non-Turkish

even in fund one

even in fund one

yeah

individual and also

corporate institutions

as well

like for instance

Supercell

the company was our investor

in our first fund

they're a fund

but they invested

in you as a fund

yeah

as an LP

so

they're actually

a gaming company

not a fund

Clash Royale

Clash of Clans

one of the biggest

gaming companies

so

there's huge interest

from LP base as well

to the gaming

as well. And obviously, I think

currently gaming in Turkey is like AI

in Bay Area, rightfully.

I think LPs who

are not as close as us to the ecosystem

are questioning, is it overheated?

And so on

in the big picture. This is the

questioning that we are also doing

in each and every one of our financial decisions

as well. But interest is

at its peak.

That makes me think, just out of

curiosity, interesting question. You go to

Palo Alto, there's like the intersection of University or Emerson or something.

There's a cafe, a friend of mine calls it the billion dollar cafe because you know how many deals have gone down.

Is there any kind of like locus of gaming?

Istanbul is pretty spread out as a city.

So is it kind of all virtual and everywhere?

I think it's spread all over Istanbul, maybe I'm biased, but I have heard lots of conversations in Divan Kurucesmi, in our event in May.

So many deals were being discussed in the room.

At your event, so specific events would be hot centers.

I mean, you're focused obviously on gaming, but do you think it would have a positive spillover effect for, you know, global VC to get interested in Turkish startups?

Or do you think it's kind of, you know, stay bounded with gaming startups?

I think it will definitely have positive impact and it already has shown its positive impact.

Like for instance, like 0.72, they are one of the largest funds and like they're close friends and they just first came into the Turkey to explore gaming universe actually.

But like once they got engaged to the ecosystem, they see that they are super good companies, let's say outside of gaming as well, for instance, like consumer AI app scene and so on.

And they have invested HubEx and made it unicorn.

So like we already started seeing this.

I think the main thing is that the perception of these investors about Turkey has been influenced positively.

Okay, the big businesses can come out of this country and it keeps coming every year.

So it definitely is a positive.

Yeah, the AI app kind of space is a good example.

It's a spillover, not just to have global investors get interested, but also from the local talent base.

The know-how and approach for mobile gaming translates very well into those AI apps.

And so there's synergy there.

That's interesting.

Good to see.

You know, it's great to have you as a voice for talking about the Turkish gaming ecosystem because there's two factors up there.

One is that I think not everybody feels comfortable speaking about gaming because it's a vertical that, you know, I don't know, pick something.

You know, B2B SaaS, even if you're not a B2B SaaS person, everybody has some idea about B2B SaaS.

But a lot of people, investors or, you know, professionals, you know, if they're not big gaming enthusiasts, they feel like, oh, that's an area I don't really know.

I can't really talk about it.

And I think that probably also helps you from an investor perspective that now a lot of the funds in Turkey, even if they're not gaming focused, they're getting into gaming.

But they were late to the game a little bit because they said, well, we don't really know about gaming.

And being a gaming-focused fund, you have a great advantage there.

But also it means that they don't talk about it as much.

And I'm thinking back to, I think it was last year, there was an Eger Isim event.

Yeah.

And you spoke there and you mentioned this there that, you know, Turkey is number one in mobile gaming right now.

And nobody really batted an eyelid.

And I was like, you know, we should be, you know, cheering.

And, you know, California has this, US has this sometimes criticized culture of, you know, oh, yeah, great, you know, awesome saying everything.

I mean, if this was in California, you'd think that everybody would be up and like cheering and clapping and whatever.

And I think, so this is the second thing I wanted to kind of, I think is a factor at play here is that, you know, I think you talk about culture.

I don't like making big generalizations, but I think Turkey, we do sometimes have a culture of being pretty self-critical.

You know, this is the problem with the Turkish market.

This is the problem with the ecosystem.

This is why it's not work, whatever.

And so we're not great at, you know, when something like gaming is going gangbusters, we're not great at recognizing that and saying, you know, this is really, really cool.

So I really appreciate you being a voice for that and pointing it out because, you know, I think that the concept of doubling down is super critical.

My brother has a sentence he says, which I like, which says, if you have a team on your, a player on your football team who's left footed, you don't force him to train his right foot.

You put him in left forward.

So, you know, double down on your strengths is a key concept.

little parenthesis aside there.

So, I mean, we can move on to talking about

sort of the Turkish venture ecosystem in general,

but is there anything else you,

it sounds like you don't announce all of your investments.

So there's a little bit of, I don't want to say secrecy,

but whatever, but confidentiality.

But is there anything you would like to share

that you can share about Laton?

Where do you see it going in the next five years?

Maybe I can give more detail about our operating model as well,

as Laton goes like.

Where did the name come from, by the way?

Actually, Laton has two meanings.

The first meaning is, in Greek mythology, it's the name of a hundred-headed dragon.

And these heads, they depict each of the founders who has supported Laton at the beginning.

And the second, the personal connection is that it's also the name of the father of the character named Def in Greek mythology.

And my daughter's name is Defne.

Like Defne's father.

It's Laton.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it has two aspects to that.

Well, like in Laton, I can just talk about our operating model as well.

So like we are an operating VC, way more like a operator or co-founder as a service or something like that.

We manage all of the user acquisition, marketing, operation of our portfolio companies.

Really?

I mean, that's everybody, all VCs talk about, you know, we're value add, we're, you know, we have know-how and we help.

But you're actually saying that you run their go-to-market.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We run marketing campaigns like the UIs, like Google Ads, Facebook Ads, like AppLovin-Work.

Like we manage, obviously there's a team.

Because financially the books should be run by the team.

But like UI.

The team being the company.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So like it's like a dual management, let's say.

But like the UI, the management, like we do all the predictions as well in the cohorts, like the data predictions.

so like okay this should be the ri prediction of this of this marketing investment and so on

and and based on that also we give feedback to the product team as well okay it should be the

level funnel is that part of the discussion when you're in the kind of the term sheet

phase of i mean it's you know let's be clear when we invest we're going to be doing this no no no

it's not like that actually it's the other way around now the market like it's an it's an optional

service okay so like uh we don't give it to all of our portfolio companies and and it's an optional

thing for our portfolio companies if they want it as well okay so some of them they already have

founders who can cover all of these aspects and they say we have a light touch uh let's say

support we request a light touch support i think it's more part of a two-side negotiation at the

beginning so if they want we want you to out like there's totally fine with us like we can't ask

anything about bandwidth so like it is it's totally fine for us so it's the other way around

like we don't force to be involved most of the time it's the other way around like they they want

us deeper than uh let's say we want to be involved in but if it's a if it's a scaling game like we

definitely accept being on the underwrite like for instance for rotate that right now like our team

co-manages all the marketing operations uh with teaming creative ideation and so on so like we

look much more like a gaming company rather than a font to be honest so um i mean that requires some

CPU bandwidth, human CPU.

So, I mean, you've built out a team.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And our team's background is like X gaming companies,

like XP Games Marketing,

and then founded his own company, Volkan.

CNM, X Good Job Games Marketing Lead.

So, like, our team is like X operators as well,

coming from...

You mentioned Rotate Lab a couple of times.

I'd love to hear a little bit more about Rotate Labs.

You know, where are they based?

What are they doing exactly?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So they are one of the rising stars of the global mobile gaming market right now.

A very exciting story.

So like from scratch, Rotate Lab is currently making almost a million revenue per day in just three, three months.

So like they're a rocket ship which got exploded.

Their game is CubeLand.

They're in the top grossing chart, the most money making game chart of the United States as well.

And the story is quite unique.

So like the team is based in Gaziantep.

They are great hustlers for almost a decade.

So they have been around since 2016, like not given up, tried so many times, got decent success as well.

But then they got this, let's say, huge globalhood of Qplant.

And one other, let's say, the inspiration factor about them is that they are a fully remote team spanning across 15 cities of Anatolia.

Like Yozgat, Trabzon, every inch of Anatolia.

And what I love about them is that like they're an inspiration to any developer, any talent living in any corner of Turkey is that like you don't have to live in Istanbul, Ankara or big cities to create great companies in mobile gaming in Turkey.

I think like these guys have showed that like you can be in any city of Turkey, not even in the office and still like you can create one of the largest global scale businesses.

like many strategic partners

are currently having their first flight

to Gaza to visit these guys.

I love that story.

Eric Ries, the author of

Lean Startup has the sentence that

most of the founders that you

hear about as overnight

successes, actually they've been

working for the

previous 10 years, they were working

really hard and then you just see the

one day success.

How big is the Laton team now?

We are currently being five and we will

Probably be six in the short run.

And we will stay like this for a while.

Okay, nice.

And so where do you see that sort of,

where do you see Latone evolving over the next,

I don't know, three, five years in that sense?

Yeah, I think we will be,

see more and more companies who want to partner in this way.

Like, hey guys, we want you to manage our marketing operations,

data prediction operations, and so on.

And probably we will get in more into the product as well,

level design, level design, and so on.

Okay, so continue as an operating kind of partner with the companies

and, in fact, grow the scope of what you help with.

I mean, there's a couple of typical questions for Turkish VCs,

which will be interesting to discuss with you

because it might be totally different answers in the gaming industry.

I mean, what do you see as the biggest challenge

Turkish gaming companies face?

I mean, what is the main thing, you know, some of the main pitfalls you see?

I think in gaming currently, the main pitfall, not only from the gaming company side, but also from the investor side as well.

There are two types of, let's say, gaming companies when you look at that.

The first ones are like forever franchises, like the ones who have cracked the systematic success, like repetitive, platform-wise, and machinery, or a long-term IP or so on.

So like, these are the big companies.

What would be an example of that?

Like historical examples would be Peak, Dream, and obviously right now, Grant Games is the, let's say, main thing in there.

And I think like we are seeing so many companies historically like who got one time success, but like having a hard time in finding the second one or let's say continuing for the long term is let's say first success.

And we see more and more questioning from the acquirers, like the M&A partners, strategics, and also the late-stage investors to this as well.

Like whenever they see a Turkish gaming company, the first question like we are having right now, okay, is this a one-trick pony, so to say?

Or like what is the longevity of this game?

Is this team going to be able to, let's say, continue to huge success of this game?

Obviously, like there's market factors as well.

Like it's not blame on the team every time.

Like there are so many competitions.

you can just let's say hold them out and like you need to be aggressive in ua and you never know if

the game is going to be too big like there's there's always a mystery part as well but i think

this is going to be the main thing that any gaming company needs to prove sure your partners in the

future makes sense and actually i think isn't my sense was that that was kind of part of where

turkish gaming companies um got their success from is that you know correct me if i'm wrong but kind

of my outside perspective was that before the wave of successful Turkish gaming companies

like Peak Games, maybe the first example there, there was much more of a kind of, it's an

art, it's a craft kind of approach.

And that the Turkish gaming companies, I'm sure other people around the world too, but

especially what companies like Peak Games did well is have a kind of, a lot of, as you

say, the best and brightest from Turkish universities, from industrial engineering type fields went

in and had a very mathematical,

systematical approach of saying,

you know, this isn't just,

you know, a craft and an art

and making something nice that's fun.

But, you know, let's also take

a very systematic approach of,

you know, return on ad spend

and make it repeatable,

cohort analysis,

all these kinds of things.

Is that, would you say

it's a correct kind of characterization

that the Turkish gaming system

has really doubled down on that?

I mean, and focused on being good at that,

kind of creating those machines

rather than just, I mean,

obviously there's a wide

bench of talent that goes into these i mean there's good creative as as well obviously but

that turkey has been pretty good at focusing on that kind of system systems approach yeah yeah i

think like obviously there's a wide spectrum of companies i said but the the best and biggest ones

who were able to create the most durable businesses were exactly like that and so i mean kind of leads

into my next question my next question was you know what's your view on exits obviously that's

the million-dollar question.

It's all fun and games

until you actually manage to exit.

There's been great exits.

Again, the view

for gaming companies may be

different than for other

verticals, but you mentioned a little bit

secondary investors thinking of

sustainability and longevity, but

how do you see the view on exits?

Is there a good path there

for gaming companies that's going to

continue or is it going to grow?

Is IPO something

that is interesting for gaming companies

or is it mostly selling to larger gaming studios?

How do you see it?

Well, gratefully, the strategic acquired interest

is at its peak as well.

So I wouldn't name drop any,

but almost all of the listed and unlisted

large gaming enterprises are super active right now in Turkey,

actively looking for deals for full M&A targets

or early stage investment

and then a path to, let's say, acquire those companies.

so like i think they will question but it's going to be a matter of price like in which pocket like

you are in terms of like how they how they approach to the not only financial but also the long-term

strategic value of that deal and which will obviously translate into the their price approach

but like with any price probably you will you will exit because the thing in is there in that

i think the casual puzzle audience is so mass and the more games and assets you have under your

umbrella as a

consolidator like

the bigger synergy

you are creating

as a buyer as

well that's why

that like they are

super interested in

buying the companies

I think I'm always

a pro IPO person

so one day I'm

sure that we will

see a real let's

say gaming company

who are making

who will make a

big IPO in Turkey

as well and one

another thing

you know actually

I'm always saying

is that I think

now we are also

entering any phase

for Turkish gaming

a much more mature

phase we will not

only be the seller companies anymore, but we will see buyers as well from our ecosystem.

So I don't know if they are going to be an independent buyer or part of a global enterprise,

but at the end of the day, they will give their own decisions and they will be the buying

entity.

So in the next five years, I think that we will see buyer acquires, Turkish buyers acquires

as well.

And that will be very, very exciting as well.

So one question that comes to mind is gaming companies can, partly why there's huge

interest. I mean, they can be quite profitable, quite cash generating. So, I mean, do you see,

do you ever run into the issue where founders kind of feel like, well, A, why do I need investment?

And B, why do I need to exit? I mean, generating all this cash, why don't I just use that cash to

buy other companies? Or how do you see the dynamics there? I mean, is there kind of a,

does the fact that it's cash generating kind of change the equation a little bit with people

needing less investment or being less motivated for an exit or do you not see that so much?

Not yet, but I think we will see that as well. We will see that, like, obviously there are, let's say, big companies, like, whose founders are not exited, like, for instance, Dream Games, like, they are doing great and the founders has not exited. So, like, I don't know personally, like, where the trajectory is going to be, but I think, like, the big company founders, like, they always have this idea as well, like, they want to stay with the company, no matter if they exit or not, like, I think that's a thing independent of their shareholding relationship.

They want to stay with the company.

They want to drive as much as possible, which is great for all the partners.

Financially, the more companies with heavy cash richness, as you say,

I think the more flexibility they will have in their own, let's say, future decisions.

And so you were thinking you might see IPO on Borsa Istanbul specifically,

or were you thinking more global IPO capital markets?

I think there will be gaming companies who will definitely, let's say,

thinking of and trying opening

on to the Borsi Istanbul like I have

heard a few as well. It will be very important

to manage the probably

expectations. That's

an area that I don't know let's say

well enough but probably we'll

see both Borsi Istanbul and outside of

Turkey. Any advice to

founders that you have

kind of in your mind

to share? Maybe a bit of a

follow on from the pitfall question but you know

any gaming founders

or people thinking to start a

a gaming company any thoughts you have for them they should only think about like product and

marketing nothing else all of the all of the other stuff is streamlined so like they wouldn't worry

about the investment side down the way financement exit acquisition strategy planning like i think

it's it's better than anybody would can just wish for uh for ecosystem i think like i see sometimes

founders let's say fall in the pitfall that they put less sensitivity on the product and marketing

side of the business than optimizing this stuff so like i would just choose partners like talent

investors publisher whatever it is who can truly help these founders in product and marketing who

can bring value like who can just make one plus one larger than two so that should be the main

let's say North Star decision

factor, decision principle.

Like this partner, this guy,

these people, what can they bring value

about product and marketing to my business?

Also for talent as well. I think

that should be the key pillar. The remaining

is kind of noise and you can just

figure that out down the way. So focus on

a good, you know, having

a good product and

distribution. And the partners

who, yeah. And then everything else

the ecosystem can provide. And the partners

who can enable you make that product

the market great. Can you also

share some numbers? We talked

about Turkish mobile gaming ecosystem

is number one in the world right now

etc. But I don't know

what figures do you have? I mean, how

many gaming companies are there in Turkey

right now or any other kind of

numbers to kind of

size anything you have

on mind that you could share? There's a very

good report of Startup

Swatch of Serkan. He's publishing the active

gaming companies. As far as I remember

the active ones was around

800 to 1000 but maybe i'm just uh misremembering it we're seeing more and more we're seeing more

and more laws because there are different let's say companies choosing different let's say paths

for strategic partnerships into like there are independent companies there are companies who

are partnering with venture capitals and there are companies who are partnering with publishers

and it's a very hard let's say exercise to detect all of all of that are probably around around

thousand but obviously if you look at the revenue wise uh concentration probably like sensor wise

is a public tool and people can just check the in-app purchase revenues from there i don't know

the ad revenues it's not public but like if you look from the in-app purchase lens it's just like

top three or companies four or five companies is making the more than 90 percent uh of the of the

big power law there we go like top top probably top five companies is making 90 percent of the

So, I mean, in that sense, maybe asking you to be a little bit objective, you know, somebody thinking I'm going to start a company, you know, starting a gaming company.

Is it like saying, you know, I'm going to become a pop star where like your chance of actually succeeding is actually quite low?

Or do you see it more of a, you know, it's a healthy industry in the sense that there's, you know, there's a lot of opportunity for a lot of people to...

I'm on the second camp.

Because if you look at the recency,

like these five companies in Censor,

as far as I know,

sorry if the ranking has changed,

but like it's the revenue-wise,

it's like Dream Games, Peak Games,

Grand Games, Loom Games, and Rolik,

or maybe the other way around.

But like except Peak,

I think the oldest of these companies

was founded in 2019.

It's just seven years old.

Grand is just two and a half years old.

Like Rolik is just, as far as I know,

six years old.

like loom games

Xcres is six years old.

So you can also think that

like we have created,

let's say,

very large four companies

in the past six years,

which is great.

Like it makes just like

one company in each

one and a half years.

So your chances

in terms of recency

is really high.

But obviously,

if you look at the

how many companies

were founded or alive

in that time spectrum,

it should be like

thousands or something.

But I think the hope is there.

There is like one out of that

the reasons for the fact that it's coming in each one

and how fierce it is as a unicorn.

Great. Kind of on a personal note

questions, are there

any books or podcasts

or resources that you follow that you'd

recommend? Well, like I

follow you too.

And I definitely, let's say

advise everybody to do.

I mostly spend my time in the gaming

subject matter, podcasts and books.

Like the two podcasts that I

am following a lot is Deconstructor of Fun

and Eric Kress, one of the...

Deconstructor?

Deconstructor of fun.

Of fun.

Mishka.

Fun.

Deconstructor of fun.

Yeah, yeah.

So they are deconstructing fun.

So the Mishka and Eric Kress,

who are advisors in Laton as well, like Eric Kress.

The second one is 2 1⁄2 Gamers.

They are subject matter, podcast,

delving dive into product and marketing aspects.

Both of them are non-Turkish.

So the Mate, Yakup, and Felix is in the 2 1⁄2 Gamers.

and the book probably for the gaming audience

is let's say it is like up, down, up of Kim Nordstrom

and he's about to release a Turkish version

as far as I know as well.

And it also gives a lot of insight

about how you would create systematic success

like this cohort of companies that I was talking about.

So these will be the three.

Super.

And one last question I have I'd like to end on

is what's the nicest thing someone has ever done for you?

I think it's a great question.

probably like obviously about business when i when i think that the early stage like when you start a

fund i think like i'm gonna obviously give answer from the business perspective personally there are

so many so many people who has done great things in the in the business side i think when you start

a fund i think it's super important your first deals it is super important in your first deals

like and with us with a smaller check fund when we started like laton was not 70 million dollars

raised. We just started with $7

million and our

average check was $250-500k.

So even though you

convinced the founders, it's

always the lead investor in that

round has to be convinced as well.

As in the nature of the venture capital deals,

for you to be in that deal.

And I am grateful to two

funds to, let's say,

just accept us

in partnering in the start of

journey. One is obviously BackVentures

and the founders of

games also and the and the and the second one is axel actually axel europe we have co-invested in

the in the company called born which has done great in the germany sanan turkish because like

these let's say first accomplishments when you when you invest in great companies with great

people i think it's it has a it has a meaningful impact in the snowball snowball's trajectory so

And obviously, I am super grateful to all the non-gaming LPs,

like large conglomerates and so on,

that I was in the high level, in the high net worth,

like company owners and so on,

that I engaged during this journey.

They were super kind, super humble.

And also, definitely Rotate Lab founders,

Abdurrahman and Salih as well.

They are the kindest.

They have accepted Laton to be their partner,

although the trajectory was, let's say,

super demanded by many fans.

and they were super kind in hosting us

and anybody visiting Gaziantep as well

with lots of great local food.

They are great hosts.

They're based in Gaziantep?

They are based in Gaziantep.

Very cool. Nice stories.

I hear that from several places

that when you're creating a first fund,

your first investments are really quite key.

Yeah.

It's interesting to hear that from you as well.

Thanks for this conversation.

It was really interesting

because very focused on gaming,

which is something that I haven't had a chance

to speak a lot about.

on this podcast so far

and totally different dynamics, actually.

Really exciting how it's growing

very strongly in Turkey.

In fact, I think I'm going to leave right now

and go home and start a gaming company.

I have some idea for puzzles.

We need to.

We are all for the great founders,

like always.

Thanks again.

I look forward to hearing

Laton's success.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for watching!